6 December, 2006

And so it goes on

Posted in Abbott and Costello, Alas a Blog, Feminist Issues, Flame Wars, Free Speech, Jake Squid, ms_xeno, Radfem at 10:49 pm by Daran

The feminists1 at Alas continue to derail their own thread2

Radfem:

Ho hum, another thread that’s all about the men.

Ho hum indeed. Let’s have a look at who’s been taking part in this discussion “all about the men” since she made that comment: ms_xeno, Jake Squid, ms_xeno again, and then who’s this? Golly Gosh! It’s Radfem!! Then come ms_xeno. And Radfem again! ms xeno. Radfem!

Seriously I don’t object to Radfem talking about me, or even about other men (I’m not the jealous type), but it’s a bit rich for her to blame me for her own behaviour.

ms_xeno:

Check it out. Right next door, Daran is going on and on about “feminist apartheid” and how men simply must horn in on everything women do for women because “that’s where the money tends to end up.” Tends to. It just falls in our laps like free milk and cookies in fucking kindergarten. Truckloads of free milk and cookies, and how meeeeeeean of us not to give him any just because he holds out his hand. Sweet jeebus.

Let’s have a look at what I said right next door

What kind of space are you talking about? I don’t want a homeland for male survivors. I don’t want reserved seats at the back of the bus or separate but equal provision. I want inclusion.

And then

there are male-created survivor spaces. But it’s the female ones that get the lion’s share of the resources and recognition.

Many years ago, I was an administrative support worker of a group for both male and female survivors. We had a funding application rejected on the grounds that the funder was supporting the local Women’s Aid Centre, and therefore there was no need to support us. Set aside for a moment the fact that the services we offered to women were complimentary to and non-overlapping with those of the WAC; what this episode illustrates is the complete invisibility of male survivors, despite our efforts to centre them in our campaigning material.

Contrast what I “ask” with what feminists3demand“.

I don’t think I’m requesting anything from a man — more like making a demand. I think that everything we get, as women under male supremacy, we have to take somehow, wrest out of the control of men, including our space in the blogosphere, on the internet.

I ask politely for inclusion into the public discourse, while feminists demand exclusive access to other people’s blogs! And I’m the one who’s privileged? Who the fuck do they think they are?

I’m also asking for access to public resources. I’ll take no lectures from Ms_xeno about the hand-to-mouth existence of many of these little groups. I was there. I was doing it. Fundraising was part of my job. And yes, I do feel that sexual abuse/domestic victims in my half of the population are entitled to be heard by public bodies, and to a share of the public resources intended for victims. But I wonder how it feels, as ms_xeno apparently does, for her half of the population to be entitled to all of it.

Next comes Jake Squid with a off-topic generalised blame-the-men comment which has nothing to do with anything which has happened in the thread. No need for a specific reply to me.

Then comes ms_xeno

Daran just never stops digging that hole, does he ? An hour ago, it was all about him getting all het up because I wasn’t inviting jaketik back to this space before calling him poopy names.

No ms_xeno. I never said anything about “inviting jaketik over”. That’s twice you’ve misrepresented me4. Once I could attribute to honest misunderstanding. Twice looks like carelessness.

Now it’s all about Daran harvesting my comments here for use on his own space, without inviting my express approval first. The stench of disymmetry –or hypocrisy– hangs heavy in the air.

Let me explain something to you about how the blogosphere works.

I don’t need your permission to comment on your public remarks. Nor do I need your permission to quote or link to them when doing so. I have the legal right under copyright law, (Ask mythago to explain “fair use” to you, if you’re not clear about that). It’s not even considered polite to ask. Quoting and linking is the generally accepted way of doing things in the blogospere. There’s a reason for this: it’s to keep us honest. You wouldn’t have been able to pretend that I said anything about “inviting jaketik over” if you followed this simple practice. Nor would you be able to slander people behind their backs if you always link and pingback to those you criticise.

Amp built the community at Alas by making thousands of posts in which he quoted people without their permission. I don’t recall you complaining about that. Now you can enjoy the benefit of his work by having your comments read by the audience he built up. All I can do is hope those who read your slander follow the pingbacks to see my reply. Some will, but many won’t. So for them, your misrepresentations will go unchallenged.

The stench of disymmetry and hypocrisy is indeed heavy.

Next comes Radfem, with another generalised off-topic attack on “male antifeminists” unrelated to anything that’s happened in the thread. Again, no specific response needed from me.

Ditto ms_xeno, though I note the irony with which she complains about men “act[ing] assholes in women’s space every fifteen minutes.” Not only had I not posted there for over 15 hours, (and it was hardly an assholish comment), but she simply declares someone else’s thread on someone else’s blog to be a “woman’s space”. She doesn’t even have the courtesy to “demand” it first. The privilege, the entitlement…

I’ll take Radfem’s next comment in reverse order:

When people slam you at their own sites, you’ve arrived! When they slam you on your own, it just gets old, says me going back to deal with the latest whiny crowd of men who can’t understand why their blackface comments and porn comments aren’t getting approved.

This is pure slander by association. I’ve never engaged or condoned “blackface” or “porn comments”, and whatever you’re talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with me. As far as “slam[ming] you from [my] own site” is concerned, well, If, as a result of lax or favourable (to you) admin, or the sheer weight of the pile-on, you’re able to bully the person you’re slandering into silence in the forum you’re slandering them in, then I guess you have achieved something. I’m just not quite sure what it is.

Ah, I saw the track back. Don’t take the bait, but calling you the thread derailer? LMFAO, the wonder of male entitlement, never ends, does it? Not only do men get to derail threads that are women-centered, but they then get to decide who the derailer is. Tee hee.

It’s not a case of “deciding” who the derailer is; that’s a matter of record. Let’s recap.

There are rules for commenters on Alas, one of which says:

I’d like the right-wing, anti-feminist and non-feminist critics who post on “Alas” to be treated with respect, rather than being bullied or shouted down.

ms_xeno posted an unprovoked abusive attack on a former poster who isn’t even there.

She can do that, I guess. I know from experience that Amp will let feminists5 piss all over his rules, for post after post after post. So as a practical matter, she has that privilege. Out of the twenty posts so far since then, I made three. One was on-topic, ironically the only on-topic post there’s been since ms_xeno’s derailment. Another was an inoffensive request for information which has been completely ignored anyway. That leaves just one post by me on which she can blame the derailment – my direct reply, objecting to her abuse.

Here then, is how to derail a thread on Alas, if you’re a feminist. Make a post abusing some present or past member. They don’t even have to be part of the thread. If they are, and you can goad them into responding, or if just one person makes just one post in their defense, then multiple feminists pile in, with off-topic post after off-topic post after off-topic post (seventeen so far6), attacking that person, and making generalised attacks on “men”, “antifeminists” and “MRAs”. And the victim gets the blame.

This is precisely the kind of “bullying” Amp said he doesn’t want on Alas.

And it works.

Update and another thing…

1Of course it’s not “feminists” doing this. It’s the individuals concerned. If Radfem can attribute the actions of one man (me) to “men”, then neither she nor other feminists who do the same, or who do not object to the practice, have any complaint. Consider this an exercise in “see how it feels”, if you’re a feminist not taking part in the derailment. If there are any feminist who do object to this, then hats off to you. You’re specifically excluded from my criticism.

2Their ownership of the thread is self-proclaimed

3Ditto note 1 – Heart in this instance.

4This was another misrepresentation:

Ah, but according to Daran, if a woman comments that men routinely derail threads to silence women and to draw attention away from the subject of male on female rapists, it’s actually the WOMEN’S COMPLAINT about derailment that’s really silencing and derailment.

5Or perhaps just female feminists.

6Not counting my posts or the pingback. Also not counting curiousgyrl’s who also called ms_xeno’s bullshit right from the start, and wasn’t part of the dynamic.

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13 Comments »

  1. Tom Nolan said,

    Bravo.

  2. Tuomas said,

    Good stuff.

    I think the belief that “Men seek to derail threads” is so dearly held that it, in fact becomes a textbook example of self-fullfilling prophecy: The feminists who believe in that act in a manner that causes the derailment. Even if men are not present to object, they can claim that the thread was derailed by men anyway.

  3. Tuomas said,

    One point here in Amp’s defense (I can’t believe I’m saying that…) is that occupies a very precarious position in the blogosphere. Unambigiously feminist man who thinks radical feminism has a lot to offer who nevertheless seeks to incorporate even anti-feminists and right-wingers somewhat to the discussion.

    It’s a bold experiment, but I think it is impossible due to the natural religious mentality of many feminists — he has to step in someones toes and can not be fair about it while maintaining “Alas” as he would like it to be.

  4. Tuomas said,

    Alas occupies…

    Also, perhaps “many feminists” is a generalization. However, it is my opinion.

  5. […] me: The feminists at Alas continue to derail their own thread2 […]

  6. Daran said,

    I don’t accept your defence, Tuomas. I don’t see anything in his definition of feminism that requires him to behave so as to be accepted by other feminists, or to let them piss all over him. And even if it did, that doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for allowing them to use his blog as a platform to piss on other people.

  7. Daran said,

    Also, perhaps “many feminists” is a generalization. However, it is my opinion.

    Generalisations about feminists are allowed in this thread. (But I reserve the right to challenge if I don’t agree.)

  8. Tuomas said,

    I don’t accept your defence, Tuomas. I don’t see anything in his definition of feminism that requires him to behave so as to be accepted by other feminists, or to let them piss all over him.

    Neither do I, but his very position forces him to behave in this way or quickly lose the remaining support he has from feminist women.

    You speak of consistency (and you are technically perfectly correct) I’m speaking of realpolitik in the blogosphere.

    And even if it did, that doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for allowing them to use his blog as a platform to piss on other people.

    Agreed, which is why I think it is doomed to failure.

    😦

  9. Ampersand said,

    I ask politely for inclusion into the public discourse, while feminists demand exclusive access to other people’s blogs! And I’m the one who’s privileged? Who the fuck do they think they are?

    It’s funny you make this comparison, since from my perspective the poster you most resemble is Heart. Both of you act as if you have a right to my platform; both of you are good writers I respect; both of you spend far too much time worrying about the moderation on “Alas”; and both of you are a pain in the ass to deal with.

    As for being accepted by other feminists, I’m not as concerned with that as Tuomas imagines. Most of the feminists who hate me the most have hated me for years; I’m not silly enough to think that I can change their views. And the feminists who do respect me aren’t going to change that, unless I become a Republican or Warren Farrell or something.

    As for “doomed to failure,” I guess the question is how success and failure is defined. Frankly, “Alas” is far more “successful,” in many ways, than I ever thought it would be. That it’s not exactly what I wanted in every way doesn’t make me conclude it’s a failure.

    I do agree that the comments are a failure, if “success” is defined as having comments full of intelligent, well-developed debates between people coming from vastly different positions who nonetheless treat each other with a great deal of respect.

  10. Daran said,

    I missed this comment, Amp, in all the excitement. I think its indicative of ‘where you were’ three days ago. I think we’ve both moved on.

    It’s funny you make this comparison, since from my perspective the poster you most resemble is Heart. Both of you act as if you have a right to my platform; both of you are good writers I respect; both of you spend far too much time worrying about the moderation on “Alas”; and both of you are a pain in the ass to deal with.

    I agree that she is a good writer, and I respect her for that, and I am seriously, majorly impressed that Women’s Space is the third most popular wordpress.com blog. Honestly, no irony. I’ll say another thing for her. She’s never taken my bait. (I don’t really bait anyone; I never post with the intention of provoking anyone, but I’m aware that I am provocative.)

    However there is a big difference between me and her. I have never demanded or even requested exclusive access to your blog. I asked Jake Squid to back off a little after he had bullied me, and didn’t you jump on me for that!

    You do realise, don’t you, that we are failing the reverse Mo Movie Measure here.

    I do agree that the comments are a failure, if “success” is defined as having comments full of intelligent, well-developed debates between people coming from vastly different positions who nonetheless treat each other with a great deal of respect.

    I think we more or less succeed on CD, despite the occasional snark which we’re all guilty of. Do you agree? If so, why do you think that is?

  11. […] I have said that I’ve been in “full-flight survivor self-defence mode”. That’s not quite true. I think there are a couple of higher levels, but yeah, I’ve been ‘galvanised’ to a fairly considerable degree by the mugging I got on Alas, and Amp’s victim-blaming response on CD. (I won’t link directly to Alas. Although I’m satisfied that my trackbacks aren’t a problem to the mods on Alas, they still might antagonise others there. This post is for me; I don’t need to attract readers to this, and I’d rather avoid the potential grief.) […]

  12. Charles S said,

    Your ping backs have awful timing… showing up 5 days late.

  13. Daran said,

    I noticed that. The pingback to my latest post (replying to you) hasn’t shown at all.


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